Teach Soap

...that's my question. Could someone tell me all the reasons why you would decide to gel vs. not gel and vice versa? All the pros and cons of both options? How do the chemical reactions going on in the soap differ? How does gelling and not gelling affect curing time, texture, appearance, etc., all the differences you can think of.

Is the purpose of CPOP (this stands for Cold Process Oven Process, correct?) to force the gel phase? What is so important about the gel phase that you would want to force it?

Is there such a thing as HPOP?

Thanks all!

Not gelling slows down saponification, which means that the lye will be active longer and the soap will take longer to harden up. The colors will usually be more pastel, the texture of the soap is kind of creamy-like.

Forcing gel, like in CPOP (Cold Process Oven Process), speeds up saponification so the soap is harder to begin with and can be unmolded sooner. The colors if used at correct amounts will be brighter & darker.

I've seen people that cook their soap in the oven call it HPOP, but I don't know for sure that's what it is.

_________________
Genny

I have a foot in both camps. I gel some soaps, but not others.
For the most part, I like gelling because of the translucent quality the soap gets; it also is tougher and last longer.
When I choose to not gel, it is for colours or scents that I don't want affected by a high heat - such as citruses, and very pale pastels that I wish to remain so.

I have never had customers comment either way, though.

I prefer not to gel. The soaps look more creamy, are lighter in color and I can use less fragrance. My soaps get hard pretty fast. I think that's more dependent on your recipe.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

I prefer to gel my soap, I just like the almost waxy feel of the finished product better. I CPOP mine because I know that if I make soap today, I can unmold and cut it tomorrow. I have some small, individual molds that can't go in the oven, and don't generate enough heat to gel, and I have to wait days until the saponification process has progressed enough for me to pop them out of the molds. I like the instant gratification of gelled soap. I still cure them from 4-6 weeks.

I like to gel because because the soap get hard sooner and I get to take it out of the mold faster. I also like the brighter colors. The look of partial gel bugs me, and trying to avoid gel seems to have that problem sometimes and just seems like too much work (not to mention fridge or freezer space). So because I am impatient and lazy, I gel.

Thanks for all the replies everyone! A couple more questions now.

If I was using essential oils in my soap, would their properties be better retained if I didn't gel and didn't oven process? Asked another way, can the higher temperatures of gel phase break down essential oils more and destroy their aromatherapy benefits more (the soap does get hotter if it goes through gel phase, right?)?
What's the difference between CPOP and HPOP?

Thanks again!

there is contriversy on wether EOs retain their aromatherapy benefits in CP at all because of the lye breaking it down, I am not sure what side I am on since I don't use EOs that much. I can say that some more delicate EO will fade/ disappear in gelled soap but stay in non-gelled. Finally I'm not 100% sure on the diffence of HPOP(hot process oven process) and CPOP(cold process oven process) I know CPOP is when you make CP as usual then put it in the oven to force gel and speed soapnifacation (just look up CPOP on soap queen and you'll get some tutorials) and by the name I assume HPOP is when you hot process soap in the oven and not the crockpot?? but I'm sure you will get a good answer on that one.

_________________
Anna Rose @-}--
blog

Some essential oils with a lower flashpoint do fade in soap like orange oil. As to what properties essential oils retain after saponification is anyone's guess. Some people say no as the high pH of lye takes what it wants; some people say yes, some of the constituents will stay after the soap is complete. I prefer not to gel to give them a better chance of staying.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

I mostly CPOP because I have one halfway decent mold and I like to be able to free it up in a day or two. If I can ever get my hands on another one (or two or three), I just might be able to be more patient about it and let the soap take its own sweet time. I also like not being forced to wear gloves when I unmold it because I know it's fully saponified. Not that I'd want to use it right away, but I'm not worried about a chemical burn. One thing I will NEVER CPOP again is goat's milk or any soap with any kind of sugar content. See my post "I Shot My Eye Out!" and you'll see why.

I notice that mica swirls look very different with CPOP vs. straight CP. The sparkles seem show up a lot more. Some FO's don't seem bothered by CPOP and other disappear temporarily only to come roaring back later. It's one of the experimental aspects of soaping that I really enjoy. As for the EOs, I never considered the aromatherapy aspect because I assumed the lye would destroy it. I'd never promote a soap of mine as "therapeutic" anyway because I couldn't possibly prove such a claim.

As for HPOP, I can't imagine why you would hot process (cook the soap in a crock pot or on the stove top) and then put the mold into the oven, because when you cook soap, it's already gelled before it goes into the mold. Maybe someone else can explain that one because I'm baffled.

_________________
Jennifer
Doing my best to blow up my kitchen. In style!

I only CP but if it doesn't gel well then my soap comes out of the mold too soft. I reserved a little saltwater from last batch until after trace but it traced too much too fast, then when I added remaining water it didn't blend well. Afterwards being put in the mold (half poured, half scooped) according to my laser pointer it only gelled to about 120. I think my best loafs have gelled in the mold to around 135- these loafs are very nice& hard immediately after coming out of mold in 2 days but likewise if it only gels to 120 i can easily but a fingerprint in. I will try adding a little honey to increase sap temp nxt time maybe. I think a really good way to see if it is gelling is to leave it uncovered in a warm place and hit it with your laser pointer temperature gauge periodically to see if the temperature is rising from when you initially poured lye water into oils. Thanks Irena for the illustrations of gelling (in the other locked thread)- i didn't really know what people were talking about. I think if I do not get a good gel to at least 120 (risen from a 100-105 saponification point) then my loaf will not turn out as well as if it DID gel to at least 120-135 so long as doesn't crack or anything. But maybe when it dries4a month itll be ok but i suspect not as good as a perfect gel. I don't really want to CPHP in the oven tho or put in freezer. In 'The Soapmakers Companion' the author says her loafs are not as good when they come out of the freezer, brittle was the word she used IIRC, and she suspects when you stop the chemical reaction of saponification by freezing solid in the freezer overnight it is hard to know if it will restart & finish properly after being taken out (of the freezer).

Thanks everyone for all your replies! Reading about other people's experiences helps a lot! I don't quite understand what the purpose of HPOP is, but I think I remember seeing a post about it on the SoapQueen blog, so I may go back and read that.

I have heard, as some of you have been saying, that the lye involved in CP can destroy essential oils and their properties (assuming they have aromatherapy properties). I don't know a lot about rebatch, but would essential oils have a better chance of surviving in this process?

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

Stoked, from what I can figure out people do CPOP to force gelling. But you can get a good in-mold gel if you trace right so it thickens up alot but not so much you can't pour it.

Rebatched soap sucks, is the problem, from my experiments and what I could gather from this forum. Do your best to avoid it like the plague. To survive your EOs in saponification then hot process your soap in a pot to make your own melt& pour base. Add EOs when the lye monster is long gone when u remelt in order to pour into the mold. The problem is that I don't think it is legal to sell MP soaps unless you are registered as a cosmetics company with the Federal Drug Administration, or something like that. Like, u could add fresh raw aloe & EOs to the remelt, blending perfectly avoiding getting cooked by the lye. But u can't sell it unless your last name is Revlon.