Teach Soap

Hello Teach Soap!

I am new to the world of soaping and also new to this forum. I have read so many texts and references on soaping, I feel like I have a pretty good handle on things, but I do have a couple questions I'm hoping that you all might help me with.

First question, after much research I thought I had the superfatting thing down. I use soapcalc.net for my soap calculator and I love it. I was under the impression that if you put your superfat percentage into the calculator that that was your SF. After testing I can confirm that the calculator lowers the lye by the percentage that you put into the calculator. I have been using this method to SF since I started. However, I have been struggling to find a recipe that works for me, and I met a local woman who has been soaping for years and has been so nice and helping me with the basics. This is where I'm confused... She explained to me that YES, you do put the SF into the calculator, but that you also have to add an additional 5% of oils at the end. Oils that are NOT part of your original recipe oils. These oils are in addition to the recipe oils. So basically you lower the lye by 5% and you also raise the oils by 5%. Now, I don't know everything about soap, but I do know mathematics and to me, that seems like it would make a total of 10% SF. I asked her this question and she said no, that is just how you SF. So, before we had this SF conversation she agreed to sample some of my soaps and claims that she can tell none of them are superfatted. To me this just sounds wrong, I just can't understand how that would be right... She gave me a recipe that was quote "perfect" but she doesn't use anymore so gave me permission to test it. First batch I did my way of SF, and second batch I did exactly as she stated. The first batch gelled, the second batch didn't, and is still weeks later is super soft. I mean, pinch away a chunk with your fingers soft. Both bars still give me the same problems she was supposed to be helping me with... Which is my next question.

All of the batches of soap I've made so far make my skin tight. They are fine when I'm actually washing with them, give my hands this wonderful feel... then i wash them off and my skin is very tight, very dry. Once my skin is totally dried off it feels better, but I absolutely can't stand that tight feeling... some soaps are worse than others but that brings me to my main question... is this tight feeling normal? I have sensitive skin so its hard for me to tell what is "normal". But I'll tell you this. Hubs is a construction worker, and has skin of concrete... nothing bothers him. He grew up using zest (aka skin rash for a week for me, lol) and is just fine... but when he uses my "moisturizing" type goat milk soap he says it makes his skin tight and dry. I'm like sheesh!! If zest doesn't bother him but super moisturizing goat milk soap bothers him, what will it feel like to potential customers? So is this normal for homemade soap? That tight feeling when washing off?

Third question, and I promise this is the last one!! LOL...

I've read so so SOOOO many articles, forum entries, how tos, videos, etc etc... that all say that in order to SF with a particular oil that you need to add that oil last step. This is how my soaping friend does it. However, I'm not the one to take someone's word for anything, and when I keep reading over and over that it takes a couple days for saponification, it made me start wondering how valid that statement was. I mean, if it takes days to saponify, how is adding an oil minutes later than the original oils make it any more likely to be saponified or not? I'm much more likely to rely on actual data than what someone says because you just never know if its accurate or not. Then I ran across this study that did experiments showing that it didn't matter when you added the SF oils, that the lye would take whichever oil it wanted, and that some oils were more likely to saponify quicker or slower than others. So it had more to do with the oils you use than when you add them. My question in regards to this is.... I still see lots of people giving out this incorrect information and just making more work for themselves. It seems like this is a very common way of SF'ing and I'm just wondering why go to all the extra work if it doesn't matter? Is this just information that no one else is aware of, or has someone actually done testing to show this method does in fact work like this?

Thank you in advance for everyone able to help... I adore this forum and have learned so much from it!

I don't think I can help with the first or third question, although I agree that it sounds like doing it the other person's way is doubling the superfat. I'm no expert though.

For the tight feeling, cold process soap (and probably any lye soap) doesn't leave residue on your hands like soaps you get at the store. So it's more of a "squeaky clean" feeling, is how I'd describe it. If it's not actually drying your skin out, then I think that'll be just the way it is, you might be able to play with it to make it not as bad, but it'll probably always leave a squeaky clean feeling. If it's actually drying out your skin, you might need to tweak your recipe to find something that is less drying and/or more moisturizing

_________________
"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

Welcome to the forum

First, no you don't have to add an additional 5% oil/butter after trace. You were correct when you found that the higher your SF %, the lower lye you'll end up using. There's no way she could tell if your soaps weren't superfatted unless they were lye heavy, because everyone's skin is different. Some people are great with a 5% SF, whereas people like me enjoy an 8-10% SF.

The tight feeling on your skin, do you have hard water? That's a common problem for people with hard water and using soaps that don't contain detergents & surfactants. I learned this from my plumber. Detergents counteracts with the reaction that the calcium from hard water makes with the fatty acids from the soap. We don't have hard water, so we luckily don't have that problem, but my mother does and so I asked our plumber about it one day.

In CP it doesn't matter when you add the oils for superfatting because like you said, the lye is still active for at least 24 hours after the soap is made. A lot of people swear by adding them at the end though and nothing you do will change their mind. So I just let them be Although if you're making HP soap, you can add them at the end and those will be the ones that are superfatted.

Have you read the book, Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn? If not, I think that you might like it.
http://cavemanchemistry.com/scisoap/index.html

_________________
Genny

Sephi,

You've hit the nail on the head! That is exactly how I would describe it, like a hyped up squeeky clean. Some of my recipes I my hands actually DO SQUEEK when I'm rubbing them together while rinsing, and the feeling of my skin when it gets to that point is terrible. I hate it. Its like if I pulled it too tight my skin might just rip. Then once it dries it feels a bit better. Some recipes are worse to do this than others, I guess I need to keep playing with my recipes. I've been running numbers through my calculator and comparing recipes, I think it might possibly be the coconut oil going higher than 20%... I can tell a big diff between 20 and 25%, and I have one recipe that came out so lovely, wonderful hard bar with fantastic lather... its got 30% though and I just can't stand that tight feeling... its way worse than the others. The one that hubs complained about had only 25%. My next batch I plan on doing only 20% and seeing how that works, but I've found once you get down to 20% your bar is pretty soft and no bubbles.

Genny,

I have not tested our water, but that is a fantastic suggestion. I had previously thought that could have an impact on my soap experience but I haven't tested it as of yet. We actually have well water and it does have some minerals in it so I'll have to do some testing and find out. I do know that other soaps, like bbw shower gels don't bother my skin at all but most bar soaps are way too harsh for me. I've heard wonderful things about 100% Olive Oil but who in the heck could stand to wait 6mo for it to cure?! I just need to keep testing until I find the right combination I guess.

I will for sure check out that book. I have not read it but that is where I found the research regarding superfatting. I read that study several times in full and I enjoyed it very much. I look forward to his continuing research on the matter! I've yet to find hard data on the gelling debate so I'm in the middle of an experiment testing just that. I've got about 9 soaps lined up to test how long they last according to whether they are gelled or not. I'll post my results for everyone once the test is totally complete.

Since you mentioned SF @ 8-10%... how long do you have to cure when you SF that high? My next tests I'm considering upping the SF a bit to see if that helps my skin. The one I doubled (so would be a 10% SF) is a couple weeks old now and still very soft. I'm guessing it will take at least a month longer to cure, but that is strictly a guess.

Thanks everyone for your responses, please add to this thread if you have any ideas/comments.

_________________
Genny

Coconut oil is actually the first thing I asked about when I joined this site, because I kept reading not too use too much of it. Which confused the heck out of me since coconut oil on it's own is so nice for moisturizing. I hadn't been considering the fact that saponification is a chemical reaction and saponified coconut oil is far from the same thing.

So it's very possible that your skin just doesn't like that much coconut oil in the recipe. Or that if you wanted to continue to use that much that you need to tweak the other parts of the recipe to compensate.

_________________
"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

Genny,

Wow, I was expecting a much longer cure time. I have been curing mine at 6 weeks and have still been unhappy with how long they last. I've read so many soapers bragging about how long their bars last... a month, two months, three months... I've even heard one lady (and I swear I'm telling the truth) say her bar lasted a year with daily use and proper care. I just can't hardly believe that. I have tested my soap, harder recipes, softer recipes, commercial versions, I get absolutely NO MORE than 10 uses in the shower (with proper care and drying between uses). So I was hoping gelling might solve that problem. I just placed an order today with Brambleberry and got some sodium lactate as I read somewhere that might help. I also ordered some palm kernel oil flakes. I plan on testing with and without.

Have you found that your CPOP soaps last longer than your regular CP soaps?

Sephi,

Thats too funny, I thought the exact same thing!!! But then I opened my trusty friend Google and started reading.... I found your original thread that voiced my thoughts so closely, I laughed at the time, now here you are! LOL! I'm already loving this forum.

Welcome!
I add all my oils and butters right up front and calculate my superfat in soap calc. Superfat is also called a lye discount. When my mother and grandmother made soap they added extra oil to make sure that the soap wasn't lye heavy. They also didn't have an accurate scale as we do today. With the advances of online soap calculators, this is no longer needed. I superfat at least 7% as anything lower my skin finds drying. I also don't go above 20% of coconut oil as that can be drying as well.

There is no need to add any of the so called superfat oils at trace. Lye at trace is still very active and it will take whatever it wants. There is no guarantee that any added oil or butter at trace will end up as your superfat. Lots of the older soapmaking books recommend adding those oils at trace. We now know that's an old wife's tale. And in case you're wondering, I've been making soap since 1969. Lots of things have changed since then.

Whether CP, CPOP, HP or any other method, I always cure for 4 to 6 weeks. The soap gets milder as it cures, besides the water evaporation rate. For pure Castile (100% olive oil), those soaps cure for 6 months to one year.

If you do a 5% superfat and add another 5% on top of that, that will make your soap with a 10% superfat. There is a higher chance with that much superfat that your soap can develop DOS (dreaded orange spots) since there are more free floating oils/butters in the final soap that did not saponify.

With my recipe, my soaps get very hard within 3 days.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

Her soaps last a year? Was this bar of soap a 5 lb bar of soap?

We've got 7 people (5 of them children) in our house and I'm the only one that remembers to take the soap out of the shower in between uses. So one 4 oz bar of soap lasts about 2-3 weeks in our house. My mother on the other hand lives alone and one 4 oz bar of my soap lasts her 2 months.

Nope, I don't find that my CPOP soaps last longer than my regular CP soaps, as long as I let my regular CP soaps dry out enough.

_________________
Genny

Hm... That's interesting. What is the advantage of CPOP if you still have to cure and it doesn't effect the hardness?

I'm still wondering how someone gets their soap to last for 2 months. Crazy.

_________________
Genny

CPOP speeds up the saponification, but it doesn't speed up the cure.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

Hm... Thats interesting. This got me to thinking... I wonder if possibly my bars aren't getting enough air flow in order to fully dry, or if the climate here (very humid here, I live in central Arkansas) might mean that these need a longer cure. So I went rummaging through my cure drawers and found a recipe that I have repeated a couple of times but that I later decided I didn't like because the tight squeeky feeling I got when i washed it off was just too much. But other than that its a lovely bar of soap.

I found a bar of this recipe that was three months old (didn't realize I even had any left!) but I cut a slice off and used it and boy oh boy what a difference in the tight squeeky feeling! Is this what people mean when they say bars get "milder" over time? Are they referencing the feeling you get when you wash it off? Any thoughts are appreciated!

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.