Teach Soap

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"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

How many people here sell actual soap though? "It cleans", that's all you can about actual soap. Nothing more.
You can't say that it will make you smell like whimsical flowers or the intestinal gas of jungle primates. Or that it contains conditioning butters or that it's gentle for sensitive skin, etc.
You say anything beyond, "It cleans" and you're selling a cosmetic.

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Genny

Not sure about that. Everything I read about what the FDA considered a cosmetic claim only has to do with the label. It says the label can't make claims, not that the claims can't be made elsewhere. It could still mean that you just can't make claims at all, but I recall it mostly only specifying the label. IF that's true, then a little website/store blurb about something being moisturizing is not the same as the label saying it's moisturizing.

Also, I was looking into the FPLA a little more, and it says that if the label info (weight/qty,product, name, address, etc) isn't on the actual product, it can be on the box/packaging it was sent in. I'm wondering if that means it could be on a packing slip or something. Not that it makes a huge difference. But if that's allowed then maybe some people who appear to not follow the labeling requirements actually are if the info is on a packing slip/invoice sent with their orders.

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"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

-The FDA DOES regulate the labeling of soap and cosmetics. They state that true soap (fat + lye= soap) only has to have the word "soap", the weight and the company name with the city, state, and zip IF that company is listed in the phone book. If not, they must have the complete physical address, po boxes are currently not permitted. There are more rules for cosmetic labeling. This information IS all on the FDA website. There are more places than just the one that someone listed here. There are a few pages that go into depth with the requirements, right down to font size. Yes, it is a maze, yes it can be confusing....that's our government! There is at least one book, by Marie Gale, that goes through labeling laws in plain English. I think that BB may even sell it!

-Companies that only slap their name and the product name on items, no matter how much you like them and "think" they would never do anything wrong, ARE doing something wrong (with the exception of soap as previously noted).
-Packing slips are NOT labels. If a product comes in a box, the box can carry the label. There are also instances where an insert can be the label but that gets rather complicated too.
-If you make claims about your soap, other than it cleans (yes soap can smell without being a cosmetic), then you are moving your soap from the soap category to either the drug category (which you definitely do NOT want to do) OR to the cosmetic category, which is fine, just a bit more work.
-As for saying your soap contains wonderful butters, YES you can say what your soap contains, that is your choice. Just because you do not HAVE to provide an ingredient list doesn't mean that you can't provide one, or that you can't say what some of those ingredients are. If I add cocoa butter to all my soaps, and I do, I am most certainly at liberty to say that my soaps are made with cocoa butter. That alone doesn't change my soap to a cosmetic.

I highly suggest the book referenced above if you have questions. I have not personally read it, but I have been told by many that it is very clear and concise, something that the FDA is not!

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

Since I do not sell I am not about to become listed in the phone book. I still try to follow the rules for labeling soaps, but have yet to add my address. As of right now anyone I give my soaps to knows where I live and is welcome to drop in at any time! They all also have my phone number! And some are connected to me via Skype!
Since I want to understand this anyway: if someone only has a cell phone.... can you still be listed in the phone book?
Just wanted to mention that I have also read another discussion on this topic on one of the other soaping forums.... there were some very interesting comments as well. Seems like this is a subject that is relevant to all of us.
Sephi - thank you for doing all the checking you have done. Maybe if someone from the government agencies started to make soaps the rules would be simplified.

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Susie
Sometimes A Mistake is so much fun, You just have to do it again!

Here is a good book for soap labeling requirements. http://www.lotioncrafter.com/soap-cosme ... eling.html

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Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

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"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

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"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

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Genny

Hmm, not to beat a dead horse, but does this mean that if we are regulated as a cosmetic, we've got to illustrate someone using soap?

§701.11 Identity labeling.

(a) The principal display panel of a cosmetic in package form shall bear as one of its principal features a statement of the identity of the commodity.

(b) Such statement of identity shall be in terms of:

(1) The common or usual name of the cosmetic; or

(2) An appropriately descriptive name or, when the nature of the cosmetic is obvious, a fanciful name understood by the public to identify such cosmetic; or

(3) An appropriate illustration or vignette representing the intended cosmetic use.

(c) The statement of identity shall be presented in bold type on the principal display panel, shall be in a size reasonably related to the most prominent printed matter on such panel, and shall be in lines generally parallel to the base on which the package rests as it is designed to be displayed.

Sorry, but I'm still confused! I really appreciate this whole discussion and all the links everyone has provided.

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Linda

I learn so much when I can't leave well enough alone!

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Genny

Thanks, Genny! If I'd read it more carefully I might have noticed that. Since I've never illustrated the intended use, I was worried.

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Linda

I learn so much when I can't leave well enough alone!

I have one more follow up email to share, Because Chagrin Valley is my most favorite place to buy shampoo bars and I had brought them up, I emailed them and asked about their labels, since as I had said before that what I have bought from them do not come with labels that "follow all the rules," but I was doubtful that it was a company that would just purposely ignore something like that.

The very nice reply I got was was that their samples (what I usually buy because I like trying new things) are an exception to the very strict labeling guidelines they have to follow because they're not available for wholesale or retail in any store, the only way to buy it is on their website where all the information for it is right there, and because they are pieces of full sized and correctly labeled products. I haven't bought a full sized bar in almost a year, so I didn't even remember that those had full labels. They are USDA Certified Organic and OEFFA Certified (a state certification, and state certifications are often even more strict than USDA, although I haven't compared this one to the USDA specifically before), I don't think they're blowing smoke because I don't think they'd get away with mislabeling for a hot minute while inviting that kind of scrutiny.

I wanted to share that last thing, so as not to leave Chagrin Valley Soap & Salve on the hook in this thread as a company that possibly mislabeled their products, and to share the info regarding the samples and labels, which I'm sure does not apply to the average Etsy or whathaveyou seller, but still.

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"Effective questioning brings insight which fuels curiosity which cultivates wisdom"

I know you said that you'd question even if you read the book (something I think everyone should do), but really, reading the Gale book would be a good start toward answering a lot of your questions because she offers the law and then explains it. I have seen excerpts and she clearly stated what the law said, where it was found and then gave the interpretation. I know BB sells her book, so you may want to get it or at least borrow it free from a library.

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

Just left Whole Foods... 1000s of bars of soap (mostly cp) NO LABELS! A sign with ingredients, and one with a website. Thats it. No label on the bars at all! I let the department manager know that there should be labels, but she knew nothing about it. Pisses me off that the company that supplies WFs doesn't have to label their soap, but us little guys do!

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~~Heather~~
Mad [soaping] Scientist