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Teach Soap • View topic - OLD FASHIONED soaping, this is NOT CP or standard HP

Teach Soap

Soap Making Recipes, Tips and Tutorials
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:14 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:57 am
Posts: 16
For everyone surfing across this looking for someone who makes soap like how your grand parents used to do it while you were to young. Well I'll explain in general. Of coarse I am only including the procedure not any of my personal specifics.

First of all, a little about me. I am a soap and cosmetic manufacturing business owner in Florida that supplies many different types of companies and businesses. The reason I began soaping is simply for 2 reasons. First being, it is a family linage thing as my Great Grandmother was a Seminole Indian who learned to make soap from her ancestors and ultimately to me. But I only use her method of saponification stimulation. The second and most luring reason is the fact that I was an Organic Chemist and studied chemistry very extensively in college. So this is child's play all day...people talk about they don't make soap with there kids home like they are going to be affected by the chemicals. A little information for the ordinary person not familiar with chemistry. When the lye reacts initially with the water the cloudy discharge is a mixture of hydrogen gas and small amounts of water vapor (which is why when you breath these it tingles unpleasantly) This is nothing at all to be conserved about. I regularly get a whiff of this. It is a base element that is lighter that helium so CHILL OUT!

Now, when you get started make sure you have everything.
Prepare your lye solution at first or whenever you feel comfortable.
I don't use any animal fats in my soap but I use a LARGE number of plant oils and extracts. So first in a LARGE STAINLESS STEEL STOCK POT begin with whatever hard and brittle oils you will be using and put on medium low heat being attentive at all times.

Now you soft oils measure into a pyrex 4 cup glass measuring cup...I usually make 500 ounce baches so I usually put similar oils with similar oils in separate measuring cups until the hard/brittle oils melt. If you use very soft oils for extra moisturizing like jojoba, hemp etc. have these oils and other oils that are overly high in Oleic, Myristic and Palmatic measure them into their own container because these wont go in until after you pour the lye and begin to just get cloudy ( 55 seconds of a blender) then add these.

So at this point there is a stock pot on your stovetop heating the hard oils and you should have 2 or maybe more depending on your batch size. The extremely soft oils sit to the side and in the other you should have oils like olive oil, sunflower oil, it doesn't really matter I prefer olive and avocado cut I always add Castor oil.

Adding Castor Oil is a good way to introduce Ricinoleic Acid after saponification which is amazingly unique.

Once you add your oils like olive and castor (soft yes but still high flash points insuring no molecular decomposition takes place. I heat this up to about 150F take maybe 5 or so of if you use sunflower. Turn off the stove and remove the pot from the element to not heat the oil anymore otherwise it will not cool in time. Your lye should be roughly 10 degrees F hotter than your oil is at this point (160-165F) so as the oil cools more slowly they both equalize perfectly at 110F. In about 15-20 mins roughly.

At this time initiate the catalyzing of the oil blend in your stock pot insuring the temperatures are nearly uniform.
After stirring the 55 seconds I mentioned before ( I usually stir with a stainless utensil.)

Once your stock pot solution is cloudy add the very soft oils now. The oil doesn't have to be uniform when this happens it wont be mixed totally when you add these oils. Break out your stick blender and begin stirring.

Now your heating element should remain warm even when off now while you stir for a short time. I usually add beeswax at 3-5% of the oil weight ONLY not combined and add that now. To reduce sodium-bicarbonate deposit and because of its hydrophobic nature will increase your soaps odds of surviving in a wet environment.

Once you add the beeswax, this should be no longer that 2 or 3 mins. from when you added the lye replace the pot onto the element on medium for a short time (20 seconds) then reduce heat to medium low for 40 seconds then reduce to low and begin blending like you would normally do for cold process.

Every 5 mins take the electric blender out and use a stainless utensil for 3 mins and continue this until the soap is 2 to 3 times thicker than honey. After you repeat this stirring and blending for 30 minutes or until a firm trace ( Meaning A trace that is uniform and complete regardless or the soaps fluidity. Turn your stove off and remove the pot from the element and continue to stir until every solid piece of beeswax is melted.

Take a temperature of the solution at this time I also always check the ph. with an electronic ph. tester to insure a ph. of 4.7 - 6.2 for the best results with the natural organic preservative I use.

Now once the temp is 110 or less ( you should be trying the entire time to plan for the soap to start to solidify at around this point) add your fragrance while continuing to stir.

Once the fragrance is fully blended you can begin to POUR the soap out of your pot and into molds. And for all the people who think this method of soaping is to difficult and it won't pour but rather plop, your about as wrong as I can make apparent to you and you should probably not add your comments if you know nothing about what your making predictions about.

It is going to pour out so nicely as long as you pour it while it is hot and still very slightly fluid.

This method insures use within a week like a typical HP method soap without the clumpy deformed bars that come with HP.
I only say a week as a precaution to you if your scared but i use them the very next night after I make the soap.

Message me for Help Tips Tricks or Advice.....but do not ask me about my recipe because its not gunna happen.

This process will involve an hour minimum of stirring and blending in rotation. Also if done correctly it will take 3-4 hours total.


By the way I spent more time learning this method than i would care to admit. BE EXTRA CAREFUL WHEN DOING THIS METHOD AS IT IS VERY EASY TO BECOME DISTRACTED AND THE OILS IF HOT ENOUGH WILL CATCH FIRE BUT MORE LIKELY SCORCH AND THEN THEY ARE DONE. YOU CAN START OVER THEN.

BE ATTENTIVE AND CHECK FOR CHANGES IN YOUR SOLUTIONS APPEARANCE, COLOR AND COMPOSITION TO BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THE DIFFERENCES IN THESE METHODS[size=150]
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:14 pm
Posts: 24336
Location: Mistress Of Lather
There are instructions on this forum on how to make soap. I mix my lye water with a respirator on as the fumes can irritate the lungs. I now have breathing problems due to not taking precautions earlier.
I add all my oils and butters right up front and melt them slowly over the burner on a stove. There is no need to add anything separately.

Lye does not discriminate. Adding any oils separately at trace or right after a trace is no guarantee that any particular oil or butter will end up as your superfat.
Ricinoleic Acid needs to saponify to get the benefits of this oil. There is no need to add it separately. Beeswax has a higher melt point, so it is best to add it at the beginning.

I never heat up any oils or butter to 150 degrees. Heating oils higher then needed can cause the oils to oxidize. This gives them a shorter shelf life and your soap could be more prone to DOS.
I go by the feel of my hands on the soap pot and the lye pitcher til both are about 110+- degrees.

It is best to use a high shear stick blender to emulsify the oils and lye water. A spoon will not give you the same effect and you could end up with lye pockets.
Any soap benefits from a cure time. Besides the soap hardening, the pH changes slightly, making for a milder soap.

I have sensitive skin and cannot use a newly made soap. It makes no difference whether the soap is HP or CP.
Soap should not be used right away or the next night. All soaps need a cure time.

And in case you are wondering where I come from, I have been making soap for 40 years and also teach.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:57 am
Posts: 16
This was just a VERY vague description of how I really make it...I don't use sap values for making it either I strictly do the molar schematics of molar mass per molecular compound and do my calculations using the electrostatic interactions of the atoms that comprise the entire make up of the contents of the pot that all the oils and lye are in.

It a simple convertion of molar mass to weight of contents in pot. then you just need the chemical makeup of the oils used. Which is also simple.
Oleic, lauric, myristic, palmatic, stearic, linoleic, linolenic and ricinoleic fatty acids are just carbohydrate and carboxylated hydrates.

Although lye is non discriminatory, but chemistry and the chemistry involved in soap making HAS to obey the laws of Physics and that is that the electronegativity of atoms have to do things that are already predetermined in nature, thus through scientific evaluation and just a little bit of calculus you can figure exactly the rate that this atomic interaction will take place and when stimulated by heat the atoms move more freely and rapidly thus completing the hydrogen, carboxyl and hydroxyl bonding process A.K.A. saponification.

The 150F your talking about is only for the heavy or hard oils. Coconut, shea butter etc. which usually have stronger carbon bonds than hemp, jojoba, cherry kernel thus the reason they are added later is to insure that the tri-glyceride bonds don't break or stretch leaving the soap dull.

It is not to contribute to the superfating process, though is does, this is just a way of controlling the heat by adding a room temperature mediator to lower the overall temperature to the 110F you talk about.

Mixing it with a spoon also is only done in a pattern like I mentioned to prevent bubble formation in the soap.

And honestly I don't mean to be rude, but 40 years you know a lot, yes, but before you think that it just takes being seasoned to be good, a chemical understanding isn't even required to make soap and honestly I don't wear glove or anything when making soap because lye is a weak base.

Being an organic chemist I know what chemicals require PPE, lye only releases Hydrogen gas as a product of the reaction with trace amounts of water. I used to do nothing but chemistry for a living taking pure sulfur gas and through dispersion distillation to formulate sulfur tri-oxide then to sulfuric acid with another reaction with water. After that force another oxygen molecule to make peroxy-mono sulfuric acid.

Honestly I would rather help people understand the chemistry of things rather than find flaws in there methods that I may be unfamiliar with.

I would be willing to place money on the fact that my chemical understanding is equivocal to the 40 years of experience you may have.

When you turn paint thinner and pvc cement into isopropyl- pentane into an alternative fuel for a gas engine we will discuss chemistry.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:57 am
Posts: 16
Although lye is non discriminatory, but chemistry and the chemistry involved in soap making HAS to obey the laws of Physics and that is that the electronegativity of atoms have to do things that are already predetermined in nature, thus through scientific evaluation and just a little bit of calculus you can figure exactly the rate that this atomic interaction will take place and when stimulated by heat the atoms move more freely and rapidly thus completing the hydrogen, carboxyl and hydroxyl bonding process A.K.A. saponification.



This statement is not meant to say that the saponification is completed then but that the atomic motion A.K.A. heat greatly accelerates the molecular interaction that leads to saponification.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:14 pm
Posts: 24336
Location: Mistress Of Lather
Most members of this forum are hobbyists, so what you say will fall on deaf ears. Most people do not know how to titrate a solution or know know how to extrapolate a SAP value for their oils. There are many soap calculators available to them, which makes making soap so much easier then it used to be.

Yes there is a law of physics, but most people do not have the financial means so they can test which oils/butters saponified completely and which were left close to their natural state.

It sounds like this board might not be the right fit for you.

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Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:37 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:57 am
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:16 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:14 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Charlotte, NC
Hi. My name is Kelly. I have a B.S. in Chemistry. (As well as a B.M. in Music, but that's not really applicable here.)

I understand where you are coming from about understanding the basic stoichiometry of the soapmaking process. It's something that I used to help me develop my own recipe. My understanding of the chemical properties of the various oils and butters, and their carbon bonds, was helpful.

Most people in this particular forum are not going to have the amount of schooling necessary to grasp some of these concepts. I say this not to be mean, or to dismiss their ability to "get it," but because some of this stuff doesn't get taught until organic chemistry at a minimum, and most people don't take that level of chemistry unless they are going into that field. Same with calculus - most people simply don't take advanced levels of math because they don't have to. And that's ok!

I will say that your process seems overly complicated. It is much easier to streamline it and add all oils and butters upfront, as soapbuddy recommended. However, if this is what you have determined to be best for your recipe, then keep doing it. I add everything all at once, because it's easier. I don't use beeswax in my soaps anymore, so I have no need to get anywhere close to 150 degrees.

Since you are very interested in the chemistry aspect of soapmaking, I might suggest that you check out Susan's blog: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/ She is much more focused on the chemistry of soap and cosmetic making that most of the people here.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:57 am
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Thank you very much Kelly, I guess what I was mostly trying to do was just help people that may be interested in the chemical process. In the past I have tried to find soap making forums that discussed more of the chemical processes and the molecules involved and their interactions but with no avail. However I do thank you all things considered.

About the molar schematics, all the oils molecular composition can be found online simple making it much more practical to hypothetically evaluate the chemical equation between the oils and the catalyst before potentially ruining the oils and butters.

I have never made CP soap before although understand the process, but is 150F to melt a combination of hard or brittle oils? Im very curious because I don't want to botch anything I would rather know ahead of trying.
The reason all of the oils are not added simultaneously is because I don't want every one of the oils to be 150F, just the initial heat to melt the oils. Then when you add the oils that are similar to olive, it will initiate a cooling. Usually if the coconut oil is 150F when I add these oils the temperature is usually 140F give or take 1 or 2F, but before adding these oils the pot with just the oils is removed from the burner and placed where no ambient heat can affect its rate of cooling. I use a 31% water to oil ratio so at this point the lye will be about 185F and the rate of cooling usually make the about 115F when I add the lye.

I guess I should have said the during the cooling of the oil and lye, when the oil reaches about 130-125F that's when I add the oils like jojoba, hemp or the oils that are affected most by high heat only to prevent over stretching of their hydrogen bonds.
Only after the lye is fully mixed with the oils will you then add the beeswax at 3-5% and place the heating element on low heat while continuing to stir. Only until the beeswax is fully dissolve at which time you immediate remove from heat (sometimes you can heat it less if it is a bigger batch because of the batches ability to retain heat so sometimes I only heat to 130F because that is enough heat of course I remove it from the heat element quite frequently to prevent scorching). At this time the solution is still fluid enough to pour straight into loafs or rectangles or whatever mold you want because at this time the soap and glycerin combination that is now with the beeswax is about 140-150F which now it is not heating the oils by themselves as soap buddy may have thought, potentially ruining the oil molecule, but now it is soap and glycerin which are not effected by heat in the manner that oils and butters as they are now totally different from the initial oil, butter and lye water. So as the soap cools at about 110-100F it will begin to gel and harden around the sides and corners. You can pour at anytime once the beeswax is melted that being whether fluid or more like pudding it doesn't matter the outcome is always the same only it being fluid like about as fluid as ketchups consistency, it leaves now pockets making it perfects for making soap in the shape of sunflowers and azaleas.

Also I believe there was a misunderstanding of the method of how I stir the solution. I don't use a stick blender. I use a cordless 18volt Ryobi drill with a small kitchen whisk that fits perfectly into it like it was a standard part of my tool set. I only stir with a spoon for a short time every 15-20 mins of drilling only to not allow small air bubbles to form and not dissipate before it gets too thick for the bubbles to find their way out of the soap. The whisk is ALWAYS fully submerged into to soap s to not introduce air because the whisk is, well a whisk. The was my first choice.... A. because it was readily available at the time I had started making soap. and B. because I knew I could have much more control of the speed of the rotation as well as the ability to reverse its direction to help also to alleviate oil from the mix.

My question is, is the drill and whisk a tool used by any other people you may know? Or am I just alone here...baha?

This process of soap making is one that is most similar to how pioneer people or early people would have made their soap only where mine is over a cooking element, theirs would have taken place over a wood burning fire. My great-grandmother is an example of the types of people who made hers over fire and a 1/2 inch plate of steel over the fire. That method stuck with me not only because of sentimentality but because upon learning and studying chemistry it made very apparent to me that this method without question made the reaction produce soap much more swiftly. In those days they had no way of waiting 4-6 weeks for soap to cure. It was lets go make soap then after 72 hours it will be ok and it is if it is inducted by heat.

Granted after 72 hours the soap is still soft, it is caustic free. My great grandmother still allowed for a week to 10 days but nothing like 45 days.

I also would like to add that mainly I was interested in this forum in the first place because I thought that it would be a place excepting of innovation and just a different method of thinking. But I guess people just aren't capable of comprehending these types of things. And I am sorry for the long explanation I am just very analytical. Also I want to learn more about the process of soap making. I don't have more that 2 or three years of experience making soap, however making soap in a terms of chemistry it is very simple and I know that my understanding of the reactions is the reason why I have never messed up more that 5 batches all in the very early stages and now I make 1 sometimes 2 batches a day all of which are over 10lbs. I promise I'm not bragging or boasting or even trying to be the know it all guy, but I believe that by helping people realize the deep down chemistry they too can be unafraid of lye first off and know EXACTLY without doubt of what is going on and how to control the outcome to make that particular soap do anything like show signs of relief (NOT CURE, FDA) for any skin condition there is. That is what I would like to see. People with plaque Psoriasis use natural products. With dermatitis, also feel relief in a natural way. And the list goes on and on but ultimately I guess people aren't driven to that point, yet. Coloring I guess is more fun that the chemistry but I have no idea, never tried.

Anyways thank you very much for your comment and I apologize if I may have said anything to anyone to somehow belittle or step on their toes, that was never my intention.


Last edited by Tampa82 on Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:02 pm 

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:52 pm 
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Location: Bellingham, WA
The science behind soap making surely is interesting! I love hearing how others make their soaps.

We however do highly recommend wearing gloves, goggles, long sleeve shirts and pants and closed toed shoes when making soap. Lye water should always be handled carefully. We also recommend working in a well ventilated room. Our lye safety info can be found here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6ttCSrLJI I will never forget this story of a son accidentally spilling the lye water of his mother as she was soaping; http://teachsoap.com/2012/03/06/working-with-lye/ It is always better to err on the side of caution.

We usually recommend a 4-6 week cure time as it hardens the bar and lasts longer when used.

As far as temps, superfat, when to add the oils/butters and many other things, I know there are a lot of differing opinions and techniques that soap makers use and we will all never agree on every single one of them. I soap around 120, but many do room temp or some do hotter. Part of the beauty of making your own soap is choosing the method and technique that works best for you, as long as we are all staying safe and handling everything carefully. :D


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